question for people who saw Episode III on or around opening night

[thehefner]

More than one early review for SW:ROTS wrote Padme's line in the Senate as, "So this is how democracy ends- to thunderous applause." A powerful line, I thought. Then I actually see the movie last Wednesday, and the line I hear is: "So this is how liberty dies- to thunderous applause."

There was a fair bit of press about Lucas' "politics" influencing the movie or some such stuff, and since more than one reviewer wrote her line the first way, I'm wondering if maybe the line wasn't redubbed. So my question is, did anyone else hear the supposedly original line? I think the "democracy ends" is a far more powerful and poignant line, not to mention a teeny bit relevant, if one were to maybe see things that way.

Comments

[interdisciple.livejournal.com]

"liberty" and "democracy" are, in our own framework, such interwoven terms--but in the broader context, such relative abstractions--that, to me, the only difference is in their literary power.

on "death" vs. "end": i'm curious to know why you think "end" is more powerful. has "death" become too melodramatic or trite? if so, i could see how that'd be the case.

personally, i can imagine many cases of liberty that are not founded upon democracy, and many cases of "democracy" which hardly could pass as providing true liberty... then we inevitably approach applications vs. theoretical conceptions...

all i know is that freedom and authenticity are slowly--or quickly, depending on your scale--fading...

then again, in the wise words of andre3000, none of us are free when others are oppressed... we're just flawed.

[tompurdue.livejournal.com]

I think that it was always "dies". That's how I remember it. I can't imagine that they could change it between the early previews and the Wednesday midnight premiere.

I did a bit of Googling. Google News has several dozen reviews that quote the line, and only one says "ends"; the others all say "dies". None of them say "democracy"; they all say "liberty".

The real question for me is the preposition: is it "to" or "with"? Google has 9 with "to" and 38 with "with".

It sounds to me like a bunch of reviewers were quoting the line from memory and getting it wrong.

Personally, I found the Jedi insistence on "democracy" kind of disconcerting, since democracy is a deeply flawed system; it just happens to be "pareto-optimal" (there is no system that everybody agrees is better.) Hell, the Jedi themselves don't seem to be particularly democratic. Everybody prefers a system with a philosopher-king, if they could find one.

But "liberty", pretty much everybody agrees on that.

Me, I didn't think all that much of the line, one way or the other. I don't think that liberty dies to thunderous applause. It dies the death of a thousand cuts, each of which is accompanied by an embarrassed hemming and hawing.

[tompurdue.livejournal.com]

Any system of government dramatically curbs one's liberty. As they say, your liberty to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.

Democracy assumes that we want maximum liberty, and that the way to get that is by letting the majority set the rules. Under certain assumptions that works OK. Those assumptions fail fairly often, particularly when the majority is intent on infringing some of the rights of the minority.

Which always happens, but failing a philosopher-king who lacks that intent, I haven't got any better suggestions. But in no system is maximum liberty the same as infinite liberty unless there's only one person in it.

[interdisciple.livejournal.com]

That reminds me of a story I read today: Alexander the God, by Isaac Asimov. :)

What do you know about "green anarchy?" Doesn't that sound just right in a way, making Nature that toward whom we're finally endebted?

In theory or practice, Tom? ;) And does it matter (to you, and how/why)?

Leaving it open,
but drawing lines.

[tompurdue.livejournal.com]

I threw my jeremiad into my own journal so that we don't bug poor Heffie.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Pff, I don't mind a lively discussion going on in my journal. Gives me something to look forward to every time I refresh my page! (oh, the sad, sad lack of social life of a college graduate).

By the way, the two reviews that quoted "democracy ends" were, I discovered, both from aintitcoolnews.com, from Harry and Moriarty, and they have not been altered. Maybe they spoke to each other and misquoted together somehow, or they heard another version. The former is more likely, I admit, but I kinda want the latter to be true.

[tompurdue.livejournal.com]

aintitcool is more likely than most to have seen an early draft. Or maybe they're even quoting the novel, which has been available for weeks. I find that very odd.

Overall, I quite liked the movie. It really makes me want to go back and watch the real movies again. I liked the suggestion that I read that the correct order to view them in is "4,5,1,2,3,6". It's Jedi that I really want to see now, because that really is the end of Anakin's story.

Personally I have my doubts about Lucas' continuity. I don't know why the Emperor couldn't beat Anakin in the final battle. I really don't like the idea of Temura Morrisson re-doing the stormtrooper's lines. The stormtroopers used to be clowns, and making them clones just breaks it up. Let the continuity errors be what they are, so that the movie can be what it was.

[(Anonymous)]

so a relevent comment...
I am about 95% certain that she said democracy dies when I saw it the friday after it opened. I remmeber the line because it tied in with the earlier conversation she has with Anakin about democracy and how it is falling apart. Padme's biggest motivation throughout the trilogy is democracy. The idea of libery, if I remeber corectly, doesn't really come into it because the story doesn't really deal with the everyday joe of the galactic empire, its about jedi and politicians. count how many times Padme says democracy, its a lot. Could be wrong, but I think Lucus caved on this one and dubbed it.
Seeing it again soon, so I'll watch closely.
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