Old people, short people, and the BAIO (plus Brian De Palma sucks)

[thehefner]

So apparently I am the only one who noticed or gave a shit that Mick Jagger actually sang the line "You make a dead man come" at the halftime show yesterday.

On one hand, sure, it's no big deal. On the other hand, we live in such a fucking puritanical country sometimes ever since the FCC had their own little 9/11 thanks to Boobgate, and after having Paul frickin' McCartney as last year's halftime show... well, I was totally expecting Mick and the boys to totally pussy out and sell out. I was saying, "Mick, if the 20-year-old you could see what you're about to do, he'd kick you in the balls." But then Mick actually fucking sang the line (though it was bleeped out, thank you five second delay <"You're welcome," Alan says>), and I just exploded with happiness. I have renewed love for the Rolling Stones. Rock and fucking Roll, man.

After the game, Alan and I had a Paul Williams III double-feature. You probably know Paul Williams III as the short guy with the blond mop and glasses from his several appearances with the muppets. We watched BUGSY MALONE (his choice) and PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE (mine).

BUGSY MALONE is a 1920's gangster musical performed entirely with children, some of whom wear mustaches. The kids shoot each other with tommy guns that shoot blops of cream, like pies. This movie is deeply unsettling on a number of levels. For one thing, the cinematography is almost exactly like THE GODFATHER and especially the mob masterpiece ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA, and when a kid gets shot with the guns (a big splap of cream in the face usually) they don't react, they don't scream, they just freeze and we never see them again. Secondly, 13-year-old Jodie Foster is the best actress in this movie by default, out-acting even 15-year-old Scott Baio. Yes, believe it or not, Jodie Foster out-performed THE BAIO! And finally, the movie has absolutely no resolution whatsoever. It just ends with a huge shoot-out with everyone getting "creamed" and then bursting out in a huge song and dance number.

Then you have PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE, directed by Brian De Palma. This is a glam rock musical that mixes Phantom of the Opera and Faust, with touches of Frankenstein and Dorian Gray. Alan put it best: "Wow, if this movie had been just a little bit worse, it could have been ROCKY HORROR. As it is, it's just slightly too good!" The movie also stars Jessica Harper, who would later star in SUSPIRA and then become Woody Allen's post-Diane-Keaton muse in LOVE AND DEATH and STARDUST MEMORIES. I think Alan's right, Woody made her his muse purely to rub Paul William's face in it.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that PHANTOM is Brian De Palma's best movie. Or at least, it's his most honest movie. De Palma is widely regarded as one of the greatest directors of the last 30 years. Ok, well, let's look at some of his movies: CARRIE, DRESSED TO KILL, BLOW OUT, BODY DOUBLE, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE, CARLITO'S WAY, MISSION TO MARS, SNAKE EYES, and most famously THE UNTOUCHABLES and SCARFACE. I haven't seen some of these, and I won't pass judgment on CARLITO'S WAY till I see it...

... but seriously, ok, why the hell do people think THE UNTOUCHABLES and SCARFACE are brilliant movies? Why? WHY? I'm really curious here.

I mean, UNTOUCHABLES should be great, but it's pure over-the-top melodramatic Hollywood schlock, which wouldn't bug me as much if it sorta spits upon the heroism of the real people. Elliot Ness throwing the eeeevil Frank Nitti off a roof in cold blood, smashing him into a car, and wise-cracking, "Nitti's in the car"?! What the fuck is that? How could David Mamet have been a part of that shit?

And SCARFACE is even worse in its ridiculous excess. How people can hold it up to Scorcese and Coppola's work is utterly beyond me. I mean, for God's sake, you have F. Murray Abraham, Robert Loggia, and Pacino playing frickin' cubans?! And Pacino is no longer the Pacino of DOG DAY AFTERNOON; I think he sold his soul the second me mumble-growled "SAY HARRO TO MY RIDDLE FRIEN'!" The SCARFACE remake is pure loud angry style, filled with one-liners that sound like the slogans on t-shirts worn my idiots. I really want to hear somebody defend this movie as art, like so many hold it up to be. Because all I can see is the perversion of a far superior 1933 movie filled with laughably stupid moments like the giant pile of coke (seriously, that's like out of a Zucker brothers movie!) and the ultimate effrontery, the "Push it to the Limit" montage. I challenge you to defend De Palma and these movies.

On the other hand, BODY DOUBLE did provide me with one of my favorite movie moments of all-time: a completely random fully produced musical number of Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax" set in a sex club. Perhaps I can forgive De Palma for that. But every time I see Tony Montana hailed as a cultural icon, I kinda wanna puke.

On a totally seperate note, my cat's evil doppelganger just kicked his ass and have him a nasty battle wound. I am kind of perversely amused that my cat has an arch-nemesis, and it's a near-exact copy of himself.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Jessica Harper ironically starred in the sequel (for lack of a better term) to the rocky horror show "shock treatment" as Janet Weiss. To further the wierdness, the guy who replaced barry bostwick as Brad was later in the film the hunger with Susan Sarandon.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Which I was thinking about mentioning, but I was going on too many geek tangents as it was already. I'm lucky if even half my readership didn't just skim over this whole thing.

[jayel4192.livejournal.com]

Wait a sec.

The Stone's first appearance on National Television was after "Let's Spend the Night Together" hit #1 in America. They did the Ed Sullivan show. I think it was 1966.

Ed asked them to change the lyrics. So Mick got right up in the camera, rolled his eyes, and sang:

"Let's spend some time together".

Mick was about 23.

Selling out to a national network is pretty much EXACTLY what a 20 year old Mick would do.

Old age and money have actually made these guys more ballsy.

[torberg.livejournal.com]

What I don't understand about Scarface is that it seems to have been taken on like a gangsta ideal. Part of me wants to shout, "He gets horribly whacked, you idiots! He doesn't win! This is not a goal!" I have not done so as the rest of me does not want its ass kicked (or worse).

The movie may say this:
In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

Do you know what the movie shows happens next? Then you get the shotgun blast in your back!

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Oh that's RIGHT he did! I was thinking in terms of the whole "we've been around as long as the Super Bowl, bleah!" thing, but you're totally right.

[fishymcb.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Scarface = totally overrated. I couldn't even finish it. Pacino's accent brings to mind the villain in Johnny Dangerously who called people "farging iceholes". Heh.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Johnny Dangerously, a movie that everyone is simply apalled that I have not seen yet. I've got to rent that and REAL GENIUS before I'm completely found out.

Whuh oh...

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

In total agreement with you. Why the hell do these people worship and him and this movie? I mean, seriously, if for nothing else did these rappers miss the whole "Push it to the Limit" musical number?!

I prefer the Homer Simpson mentality: "First you get de sugar. Den you get de money. Den you get de wee-mon."

[fishymcb.livejournal.com]

Haha, I caught it on Comedy Central late one night, I was kind of in and out. But Maureen Stapleton as the fierce old Irish mother was hilarious, I do know that.

[fishymcb.livejournal.com]

And holy shit, she's still alive. 80. Way to go.

[interdisciple.livejournal.com]

while i agree wholeheartedly with tor here, i have to say i disagree with your stripping scarface of its artistic merit based upon this misguided angsty-gangsta enshrining alone.

it's weak of me to raise issue with your critique while i'm at work and have no time to offer the artistic defense you're seeking, but in my own humble opinion, it's definitely there, both in terms of plot and character development, and in terms of film technique, and i'll produce it if and when, upon request.

now you may not like or personally be able to relate to or feel sympathetic toward the characters, but in terms of a well-done piece, i do believe it's a classic for a reason (and far greater a reason than for its cheap one-liners, big guns, and mounds of coke the size of my torso alone).

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

You don't feel it's heavy-handed and hackneyed, though? Like a big overblown soap opera? I would very much like to hear your thoughts when/if you do have the chance.

Have you seen the original? I wholeheartedly recommend it, not just because it's an awesome movie, but because of all the things that it did that the remake became famous for.

[torberg.livejournal.com]

Full disclosure: I haven't seen the movie.

That said, I guess I should clarify my bewilderment. I'm bewildered about the revival in appreciation of the character and his lifestyle. It could be the greatest movie there was, is, or ever will be, but he's not a character on whom to model your life. Or even want to model your life.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

As one who did see it with the knowledge of its influence, I still agree with you.

[jellied.livejournal.com]

Eh.

I'm more of Tarantino-- girl. I'll take "Dogs" and "Pulp Fiction" over that any day of the week.

Rumor has it, as much as "Scarface" is the goto films for most guys-- "Clueless" has been heralded with the same amount of accolades for females. To which I say, crap. The movie is absolute crap.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I'm totally with you. I really liked Pulp Fiction, but I think Dogs and, in a lot of ways, Kill Bill are just brilliant.

As for Clueless, yeah, I could tell there was some serious hubbub about it based on the raves of people on thing like "I Love the 90's" but I'm afraid the appeal is somewhat lost on me. Then again, I'm also the only person in the world who doesn't think Fast Times at Ridgemont High is a brilliant movie, and Clueless felt about the same to me (which I hope you won't take as blasphemy).

[heleneotroy.livejournal.com]

PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE!

*heart!*

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Wow, someone else has actually seen it! It's one of those movies I own that I feel like people will never see unless I show it to 'em.

[jellied.livejournal.com]

I'll chose to ignore the crack about "Fast Times", as I have checkered vans.

I partly think it's because Quentin doesn't really take himself that seriously. And is just as big of a geek as I am.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Thankee. I've seen the commericals for Rollergirls, and I don't think I was to incur the wrath of one of them.

Totally! His films just drip with geek love!

In a different way, I get the same vibe from some of the best of Scorcese's films. They both are just huge film geeks who deeply love movies.

[interdisciple.livejournal.com]

i appreciate the full disclosure. you should definitely see it, if for nothing else, for better being able to comment on both the film's significance in pop culture, as well as the character's status as an icon.

bewilderment understood and noted... and shared for the most part... but i want to add a layer on top of that -- a layer that reiterates the first comments you provided: people glorify the gangster while conveniently forgetting the downfall...which is the very element that makes the whole thing work. let's consider him the tragic hero and his greed, hubris, anger, etc. his tragic flaws -- it's actually quite shakespearean in many senses, in my lay opinion. tony montana, pacino's character, is similarly well-developed and well-played, and as such, we simply can't forget the flaw and glorify the man as a flat hero. that's just absurd. (then again, so are most trends in human behavior, but i digress...)

here's why i find the character redeemable, and can even see him as a tragic hero: while he's clearly not a role model for kids, what he aspires toward in many ways (and this is the dirty reality the movie attempts to provide social commentary on) is that the power games which he learns to control and work to his favor are very real in the "grown-up" world of money and power. and as such, he's admired, lauded, even envied, by many viewers for his street-wise success. the writers did a great job in creating his character as a likeable, even redeemable, one, despite his life of crime. (of course, the funny one-liners help here.) but he has far more than just good one-liners--there are some well-delivered and well-crafted monologues in there, based on a truly developed, albeit warped, set of principles. in that way, he becomes human to all who recognize it's a dog-eat-dog world and that he's just some guy who has no fear, who chooses to become the player rather than the played. yet most can agree his methods are questionable at best (and indisputably unethical at worst)--but entertaining nonetheless--and upon closer scrutiny, he calls into question the concept of success in general, blurring boundaries (as does the godfather films) between legitimate and illegitimate success--pointing out the fact that nobody's hands are perfectly clean. one particular choice he makes exemplifies his more admirable qualities -- in a very culturally- and era-specific sort of way, granted: he doesn't drag women and children into these dark games. he draws an ethical line, and while we may not share it, in that moment, we respect it. we see he has a sense of ethics that govern his choices, and we can't entirely judge him one-dimensionally as a result.

he does, however, slip up, deviating from his own higher self--and badly so--and it's his steady spiraling decline that makes his character really interesting and dynamic. once he realizes he's lost everything, he goes out with a bang. the interesting matter is watching him struggle with his own decline.

in watching him do this, i'm reminded of you, the good doctor, watching macbeth with woe and worry and an overall sense of doom and dismay.

so in short, while i think some stupid gangster-wanna-be-s do indeed glorify scarface for the shoot-em-up lifestyle and blingbling and whatnot, holding him up as a hero of their gangster world, i think many who love the character truly love his complexity and ultimate humanity, despite all his flaws... and would never aspire to actually modeling their lives after him.

but agreed--it's shockingly absurdly funny, the number of people who hold him up as an idol of sorts...

sorry for rambling on.

[interdisciple.livejournal.com]

here, my ignorance (and humility) comes shining through: i wasn't really aware before your post that the remake Was a remake. i had no idea there was an original. of course i'd love to see it.

now with respect to being heavy-handed and overblown in its soap-opera-ness, you're probably right, and i imagine it appears even more so when compared side-by-side with the original. but in its defense, most of our small, self-involved lives often are just that--overblown soap operas that don't necessarily deserve the attention they get... we are each in our own ways so originally the american cliche... as whimmydiddle's lj alludes to, we are each yet another unique individual.

now we're a bit off-topic, but my point is that every socially recognizable form carries with it a degree of cliche--otherwise it becomes obscured by its "individuality" and unrecognizable weirdness. i think the movie does play on stereotypes and recognizable forms, but the interactions between these forms are original, interesting, and even artful.

the funny thing is, to me, it's not so much what i'm viewing as it is the context in which i'm viewing it. through such lenses, nearly everything can be interesting, viewed both as phenomena unto themselves, as well as triggers in the fabric of socio-cultural history. not just what scarface is, but all the iterations of what it's become -- the gangsta icon, the t-shirt commodity (sold next to the che guevara T) -- is truly the most entertaining part. for the broader context, i MUST see the original -- as well as more classic pacino.

(see my other reply for more comments on the character arc)

last time you'll ever ask me to think out loud, i'd imagine... ;)

[kmousie.livejournal.com]

but seriously, ok, why the hell do people think THE UNTOUCHABLES and SCARFACE are brilliant movies? Why? WHY?

Thank you, my movie snob friend! I watched Scarface because it had been heralded as an amazing film of lasting cultural importance. I was mostly repulsed, and fouind myself laughing in places that I don't think were supposed to be funny. Like this one:
"SAY HARRO TO MY RIDDLE FRIEN'!"
[Can I just say that's the best transcription of that line I've ever read? Because it is.]

And I agree with you that the Pacino of old died as soon as he donned Tony Montana's character. The desperation of Sonny Wortzik and the ridiculously frightening quiet of Michael Corleone gave way to just plain loud, which he's been doing more often than not ever since. I don't judge him for taking the roles he's taken, and I'm sure he's been asked to be loud, but it sometimes feels like he's a parody of himself.

But every time I see Tony Montana hailed as a cultural icon, I kinda wanna puke.

And yeah, gansta rap guys, you don't watch Scarface "for the life lessons"...unless the life lesson is what not to do unless you want to end up shot dead in your own pool. ;-)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Don't feel bad if you didn't know it was a remake; one of the things that makes me so upset about the remake is that most people don't even remember the original. Which is my fear whenever a remake comes out, that it'll replace the original.

All your points are fine ones and I can't retort anything. I would be extremely interested to hear what you'd think after seeing the original and weighing all the things the remake used and didn't. It's a bit hardish to find, only on VHS I think (for some bizarre reason). It stars Paul Muni, Boris Karloff, and George Raft, who invented the coin-flipping gangster.

And I truly do appreciate the imput.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Haha, glad you liked my line transcription. You just made my day. I was hoping somebody would laugh at that. Yeah, when my friend and I watched Scarface, we just spent the whole movie cracking up. It'd be a masterpiece of absudity and excess if it weren't hailed as a masterpiece. That's like worshipping Con Air.

Have you seen DOG DAY AFTERNOON? That's my personal favorite Pacino, and it's also one of John Cazale's four brilliant movies that he did before he died.

[heleneotroy.livejournal.com]

I own an old VHS former-rental copy, but I've been meaning to buy both the DVD and the soundtrack. I've always loved that movie, but I love it more now that I know Jessica Harper plays Janet in "Shock Treatment". I showed it to Dave on one of our first dates. :)

[kmousie.livejournal.com]

You just made my day. I was hoping somebody would laugh at that

Awesome...happy to oblige. :-)

That's like worshipping Con Air.

*snort*

Have you seen DOG DAY AFTERNOON? That's my personal favorite Pacino, and it's also one of John Cazale's four brilliant movies that he did before he died.

Indeed I have. *points to previous comment--Sonny Wortzik is Pacino's character in that film* It was incredible! And yeah, John Cazale was brilliant. (What was the other film he did besides The Godfather films and Dog Day Afternoon?)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Ohh, sorry, I was thinking Sonny Corleone. Wasn't there a Sonny Corleone or am I just bonkers?

He did Dog Day, Godfather 2, the Conversation, and the Deer Hunter, then he died of cancer. Isn't that incredible?

[kmousie.livejournal.com]

Wasn't there a Sonny Corleone or am I just bonkers?

Yep, that was James Caan's character. Great performance, although Michael scared me far more than Sonny did. Sonny was violent but brainless. Michael was wicked smart, and that's scary. (On a related note, I've always felt some kind of perverse pride that Michael went to Dartmouth. It doesn't say so in the film, although Sonny make reference to Michael's "Ivy League suit" and Kay lives in New Hampshire. It's mentioned in the book, though.)

Huh. I've never seen The Conversation or The Deer Hunter. Recommended, no doubt. ;-)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Actually, I've never seen either myself. Perhaps we should add both to our respective lists?

[kmousie.livejournal.com]

Perhaps we should add both to our respective lists?

Sure, why not? That may be the only way I'll see The Deer Hunter...not sure you're ever "in the mood" for that one. I know there's a suicide, which will be a problem for me, but I'll get through it (one of the great things about DVDs is that you can fast forward even more effectively than with VHS!). Lots of great performances in it, I hear.