On Formindable Opponents, the Desire for Good Comic Discussion, Wankery on the Internet, and Asshats

[thehefner]

It's such a rare thing to find a truly great opponent for arguments.

Someone with whom you disagree, even fiercely so, up to the point of frustrated exasperation that such a person could even dare to think such wrong-headed foolishness! And yet, they back up their points with intelligent, reasoned examples rather without having to resort to cheap snark, name-calling, or other dismissive tactics. And in doing so, they get you to reconsider your own views, which is always a good thing to have done every now and again.

It's why Rachel Maddow has Pat Buchanan on her show so often. Because while they don't agree on a damn thing, they share a mutual respect, and she knows he will always be a great sparring partner in him.

It's hard enough to find those kinds of people in politics, but it's even harder to find one in fandom, where blind geek passion often rules over sensible reason of our nerd brethren.

One reason I love scans_daily is that it's the very best online comics forum I've ever seen, simply because I know I could usually find at least somebody to share discussion. I'm not talking about debate nor argument, mind you, but geek discussion with like-minded peers. After the meltdown/shutdown, people would say, "Well, scans_daily deserved to get shut down! Not just because of the comic scans, but there people there were always hateful and wanky! My god, did you hear, one of their members told someone to--gasp--Die In A Fire! Never have I ever heard such vitriol on the internet!"

...

Bear with me, I'm going on a tangent for a bit. I do that sometimes.

First of all, "Die in a Fire?" What, if I were to tell that same offended person to "Go to hell," would they think I literally meant that I wanted them to be condemned for all eternity to burn in the lake of fire and become Satan's hand-puppet?

More to the point, uh... have you people ever been on the internet before? Have you seen what else is out there for geeks? Honestly, this article NAILS the kind of fucktardery that goes on at all other major online fan communities. In fact, I'm gonna just rip off box_in_the_box's favorite quotes for your own reading pleasure:




* On Comicon: "Threads that used to consist of several industry pros casually shooting the breeze with fans turned into fuck you judd your pissing in the eyesokets of Hal Jordan teh one true GL!!! Which is arguably true, but not the stuff of lively debate."


* On TCJ: "No one ever posts about the content of the magazine itself, proving that not even the most hardcore fans of The Comics Journal read The Comics Journal.

"The only other time the board gets lively is when someone brings up superhero comics, which the regulars all hate the way Elizabeth hated Mr. Darcy."


* On Warren Ellis' various fora: "Warren Ellis runs his forums like goth nightclubs. As soon as they get popular enough to attract anyone besides aspiring Suicide Girls and guys who draw vampires, they cease to be cool and he shuts them down."


* On Newsarama: "From time to time Rob will ask me why everyone loved the latest terrible Marvel or DC mega-crossover, why everyone was wowed by some shock-value plot twist, why everyone dug Satan magically dissolving Spider-Man's marriage or the Scarlet Witch doing the makeouts with her brother. When, against my better judgment, I inquire further, it always turns out that 'everyone' means 'Newsarama.' And that's Newsarama. It's where dumb comic books spawn dumber opinions. It's the message board of bad life decisions."


* On the DC Message Boards: "Populated by self-hating teenagers, woman-hating teenagers, and self-hating, woman-hating, forty-year-old teenagers, each a few IQ points short of the people who post comments on YouTube, the DC message boards are the most grotesque comic book message boards on the Internet, but only because Marvel doesn't have its own boards anymore."


* On Byrne Robotics: "A lot of things are accused of 'disrespect to superheroes' on the Byrne board, a charge at least as serious as racism. Come to think of it, Byrne once posted that using the term 'word bubbles' when you mean 'word balloons' is equivalent to a racial or ethnic slur. Ever since, I've been calling them 'word wops' in his honor.

"[...] Also, flamewars are rare on the Byrne board, for much the same reason that heated political debates are rare in North Korea. It's even possible to discuss normally charged topics like abortion, gay rights, and atheism, as long as nobody drifts into really controversial subject matter, like what shape the serifs on Superman's 'S' should be."



And the fact that scans_daily got/gets a rep for wankery--even from people who frequent those very communities!--it just boggles the mind. Because scans_daily gave (and to some degree, still gives, but the two spin-off communities just aren't the same, man) me the best geek community I've ever seen. Period.

But even they had a handful of exceptions. Not just trolls--they were rather good at banning trolls--but folks one or two steps above trolls: the asshats. Sadly, you can't ban asshats just for being asshats. I'd name names, but I'm sure a couple of you have them on your flists. Maybe they're totally cool people IRL, but online, the asshattery abounded.

I remember back when I posted by epic "Why THE LONG HALLOWEEN sucks big floppy donkey dick (in relation to Gilda Dent, whose subplot makes no fucking sense if you'd actually stop to think about it, Christ!)" essay, a couple folks disagreed with me, shooting off a couple dismissive remarks and personal insults. When I responded rather reasonably, inviting them to actually tell me why they disagreed, to start a discussion, they flaked off and never responded. That's what really got me: they weren't willing to stand up for their points. They just wanted to dismiss, insult, and run.

I haven't seen those guys around much at nu!scans_daily, but there is this one guy... hoo, man, over the past couple of weeks, the things he's been saying have been red flags, little things here and there that rubbed me the wrong way. But it wasn't until he started voicing certain opinions on Paul Dini's writing that all the alarms went blaring off in my head: "WARNING! WARNING! AVOID AT ALL COSTS!!! DO NOT ENGAGE THE ASSHAT!"

So I didn't. Unfortunately, that didn't stop him from engaging me. For once I posted the image of that seriously stupid Bat!Harvey comic cover, the suspected-asshat took issue with my rants, and once it came out that he not only disliked Paul Dini and LOVED Tony Daniel's insipid artwork, but that he thought Grant Morrison's take on the Joker is the most inspired and chilling the character has been in decades, much much better than Dini's ever was, oh motherfucker it was ON.

I was up until three in the morning sparring with this guy. His every response filled me with glowing, exasperated horror that I could have found someone so completely counter to seemingly everything I hold worthwhile and true about Batman comics, and I kept waiting for him to play the typical asshat move like the others, ending this discussion with me fuming at his idiocy and once again taking only the meager consolation prize of righteous geek indignation.

But then a funny thing happened: once he remarked that we actually reached common ground on an issue (the lack of Harvey depictions that play up his internal duality, in favor of just making him a cheap gimmick villain), I felt a sudden rush of exhilaration. Because I realized that he wasn't just another asshat. No, I'd finally found a Pat Buchanan to my Rachel Maddow! A Stephen Colbert to my Stephen Colbert!

It has been remarked that one can actually feel the energy flying off that thread between us, and I get a wee thrill just thinking about it now. My own views remain mostly unchanged from what I can tell, but I have a greater appreciation and understanding for his, particularly once I realized so much of it stemmed from a common place. If only there were more debates like this in political, religious, and social forums, but such a thing doesn't come by often. It's a partnership, in some ways. A give and take between two people on the same wavelength, even if it's on the complete opposite ends.

Ultimately, when he offered an e-handshake on the grounds of agreeing to disagree, I kinda wish I could have been there to give it to him in person. I look forward to seeing him around in the future, and if we do end up crossing swords again, I can only hope we are able to maintain our civility and respect as before as we launch into another heated debate.

Because asshats come and asshats go, but formidable opponents? Those are rare and precious things indeed.








He's still wrong, of course.

"Paul Dini writes formulaic and forgettable Joker stories" my ASS...

Comments

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

To be fair, some context as to why people got upset over the "die in a fire" comment: turns out the writer at whom the remark was directed had actually lost someone close to him in a fire. So, you know, it was kind of crass, and not in the good 80's-punk-aesthetic way.

The thing about telling people to die on the internet is that you never know what the emotional state of that person is, or what their history is, or whatever. Recently I was going through a depressive episode and someone told me to fuck off and die. It wrecked my whole fucking day, because I was just in a bad place. Was it entirely the other persons' fault? Not at all, but one runs the risk of having that sort of effect when one shoots ones mouth off - on the internet, in the real world, in pretty much ANY context.

[tragical-mirth.livejournal.com]

I learned my lesson with "Die In a Fire" this week.

We went to a haunted house in a cheesy southern theme park town (don't ask) on Tuesday. I was chased around in the dark by goons in masks and tripped over something I couldn't see.

My asshole friend laughs at me as I'm getting up and threatening to punch said goon in mask when I shout, "Oh, die in a fire."

At which point another haunted house goon appears from out of nowhere and instantly lights up some kind of welding torch or something, dragging it across a metal grate and sending fire and sparks everywhere. I shriek and nearly have a heart attack convinced we were going to actually die in a fire.

I think I may never say those words again lest I invoke fiery doom.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Did he? Well shit, I hadn't heard that. I had thought of "DIAF" to be the internet equivalent of, like, "go fuck yourself" or "go to hell," but now I'm trying to think of any other comparable such sayings that one must use with care... I mean, as much as one CAN use such sayings with care. Maybe the key is just not saying those sorts of things at all. I'm not the sort of person to say things like that anyway, so it's less comparable for me directly, but it's so commonplace online that my immediate reaction was, "Well, yes, it's the internet."

And yet, I see what you mean, it totally can ruin a whole day. Hm.

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

It ties into the whole trigger brouhaha that's been going on in some fandom communities lately. Also, an argument I had with a total doucheface in Shannon Wheeler's LJ about whether or not rape jokes are appropriate in certain contexts.

But I haven't had coffee yet so screw that whole discussion.

I would also like to say, man, I am so done expecting any kind of "dialogue" with 99.9% of comic book fans about comic books, because when I try, it goes like this:

Me: I find it very interesting that Star Sapphire is considered the "evil other side" of this woman, don't you? What do you think it means that Star Sapphire is sexualized constantly, while her "good" persona is usually shown as fully clothed and relatively virtuous?

Other person: it means shes a slut lol

Other other person: Who cares? This is all about HAL JORDAN!!!!1 OMG

Me: Okay, well, about Hal Jordan! Do you find any significance in the fact that in his interactions with Star Sapphire he's not just trying to change her mind or stop her, but actively trying to disempower her?

Other other person: You're reading way too much into this! You're just looking for things to be offended by. There's no subtext in comics!

Me: What about the idea that the Green Lanterns basically exist to enforce their own personal values as laws on alien cultures? Don't you think that's kind of a sketchy concept? I mean, it's basically all about imperialism and colonization! Don't you think it says something about our own beliefs as a society that we consider Hal Jordan, in his capacity as a Green Lantern, to be a role model, if not the greatest superhero ever?

Other other person: What are you, some kind of communist?

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, you're pretty well dead-on there, particularly when it comes to online fans at places like Newsarama and dccomics.com.

Really, if I didn't love these characters and stories so deeply, the fans and the fucked-up nature of the industry itself would have had me stop reading superhero comics entirely.

Also, are you familiar with Carol Ferris' OTHER persona, the Predator? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ferris

The fact that the Predator has been pretty well totally retconned into being the embodiment of "love," (just as space-bug Parallax was for fear, and space-whale Ion is for willpower) according to the Zammarons' version of what love means, feels rather messed up for whole other reasons!

Hitting the road for Winnipeg now, brb.

[kali921.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

Okay, I debated back and forth for hours about whether or not to post a comment about this.

Firstly, wow, confusing message in your OP. The first time you posted about the nuking of S_D, you said that you agreed with everything MGK had to say about the subject, and since he took an ugly potshot at me in his first post about the subject, that implied that you agreed with him. So, there's that.

Then here, five months later, you're posting about how you're amazed that anyone could take DIAF seriously. Kind of a mixed message there?

As for the above comment, it wasn't directed at PAD directly in person. It was directed at his work in X-Factor in a fan-run space where creators are barely present. When I found out that he had lost someone in a fire, I posted in detail about it with an apology. PAD had not been a visible participant in S_D by his own direct admission on his blog - in fact, he'd never even heard of it until someone pointed him to that X-Factor post. I also find it ugly and ironic that the person above talking about how destructive that language is has had some very ugly things to say about me to the tune of DIAF and worse.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

The MGK incident was a couple of years ago. Frankly, I got over it. What he said was just a snarky missive, and I was even more sensitive than I am now, which is saying something. As you know, I needed to develop a skin at all--thin or otherwise--and I'm still working on it. As such, I try not to get butthurt by Internet snark anymore and shrug it off, because that's fandom on the internet.

[kali921.livejournal.com]

Just to be clear: I wasn't talking about the MGK incident with you. I was talking about the ugly things that he said about me back in February after the nuking of S_D and your post where you said that you agreed with his opinion of everything to do with the imbroglio.

Edit: there's also the fact that in the thread you link to above -- the thread with you and the guy over on S_D 2.0 going back and forth on Dini - I was really surprised to see you pull out the "it's okay that Selina got her heart cut out because she came back and exacted revenge." That's exactly the argument that the Bendis Boys used after Tigra's beating over in NA. It's a rookie argument that fanboys who are blind to a lot of concerns that female readers have use in arguments about the way female characters are treated. To be honest, I was really surprised, hurt, and disappointed that you actually took that stance. Also, Madame Mirage, anyone?

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Oh! I'd forgotten that. Yeah, that was bullcrap, but the guy IS an asshole. He reminds me a bit of Devin at Chud: an asshole but an entertaining and occasionally eloquent one who makes me think, even when it's in disagreement.

Cutting out her heart was an outlandish, comic book thing, not like the ugly, brutal, far too real feeling trashing Tigra got (and as I understand, unlike Selina, she never even got a proper revenge). What Dini did with Selina was actually part of her arc in the story, not ugly cheap shock value from a writer who loves to shit on a character.

Besides, what do you care what I think? You defriended me, after all.

[kali921.livejournal.com]

Cutting out her heart was an outlandish, comic book thing, not like the ugly, brutal, far too real feeling trashing Tigra got (and as I understand, unlike Selina, she never even got a proper revenge). What Dini did with Selina was actually part of her arc in the story, not ugly cheap shock value from a writer who loves to shit on a character.

Okay, firstly, and I say this not in a mean-spirited way: your white male privilege is showing.

Besides, what do you care what I think? You defriended me, after all.

...Wow.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Maybe so. When I get the trade, I'll reread the story and reconsider my stance.

Well, when someone defriends you out of the blue, what else am I to think other than you don't want to follow me anymore?

[kali921.livejournal.com]

I'll take this to private PM to explain the defriending as I'm really not interested in public drama.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

You'll have to bear with me, then. I'm in Winnipeg, Internet options are limited, and there's only so much I can type on the iPhone.

[tragical-mirth.livejournal.com]

[mellifluous-ink.livejournal.com]

I've learned to stop trying to even offer that 'let's agree to disagree' line, because it never works anyway. I just ignore it. I mean, I get people picking fights with me too often to actually want to debate things any more.

[gnort.livejournal.com]

To be fair, not every DC or Marvel mega crossover is terrible. Some are, Countdown to Final Crisis being a prime example. They made up for it with the awesomeness of Trinity. JLA/Avengers was also nothing short of glorious.

I didn't think anybody dug Brand New Day. At the very least, I have yet to come across a person who speaks of that plot point positively.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I liked TRINITY too, but someone on a message board somewhere--Newsarama, I think, god help me--said it was absolute shit and between it and his GL strip in WEDNESDAY COMICS (which I liked, it's just a slow start), was proof that Busiek is a hack still riding off of the fame of his early ASTRO CITY work. Which is patently absurd. I'm glad to hear you liked TRINITY too, I'll definitely be picking up the trades down the line.

The only people who seem to like BRAND NEW DAY are comic professionals. The great Spider-Man writer Roger Stern said it was the best Spider-Man has been in twenty years, something like that. Sales have been declining from what I understand, but Joey Q is still keeping at it because he's convinced it's the way to go, god help us.

[gravityslave.livejournal.com]

Twu wuv!
I would be absolutely ecstatic to meet my argumentative equal - but I fear 'tis never to be. My husband doesn't believe in the art of the debate and the few friends of mine who do, well... we agree on too bloody much.
I will continue to mine the Intarwebs for gold, though, because I have too much time on my hands...

Might get a tad bit harder out there for good debate

[the-mithril-man.livejournal.com]

If they pass the Cyberbullying Prevention Act. The next time you harsh on Jeph Loeb could be your last as a free man.

Re: Might get a tad bit harder out there for good debate

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

What a horrible, fascist nightmare future that would be! Orwell didn't see that shit coming!

Re: Might get a tad bit harder out there for good debate

[the-mithril-man.livejournal.com]

If it makes you feel any better, it's for your own good.... I mean the children.

[lairdofdarkness.livejournal.com]

This is a typical post that makes me happy I found and read your blog.
Although I probably fall into agreeing more with your nemesis (hey I'm Scottish and been reading Morrison since waaaaaay back in the Zenith days. My LCS owner reckons that all comic fans have at least one creator/writer/artist that they will turn a blind eye to their bad stories and just remember the good - he is mine)
So keep writing the opinions sir and I will keep reading them. If it wasnt for you I would never have watched "Sunday in the park with George" (and end up singing "finishing the hat" to my crying 9 month old nephew to try and get him to settle...it didnt work! - he is now 2 and a half and still likes me so that a good sign)
Rambling post/reply so will stop now

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I've been kinda worried now and again about how you'd feel regarding my somewhat prickly hot/cold feelings toward Morrison. So really, the fact that you said this means even more than usual.