Journeys and Destinations

[thehefner]

There's an old Hollywood axiom that warns, "Movies are about their last twenty minutes," which is pretty much a direct rebuttal to the great writer's mantra, "It's the journey, not the destination."

So, questions, my lovely flisters:

Ever seen a brilliant movie or read an awesome book that was ruined by its shitty ending? For me, it was THE HOUSE OF SAND AND FOG. A magnificently moving tragedy utterly destroyed in the last fifteen minutes by the tacked-on subplot that served to do nothing but be an excuse to force everything to go to shit, because oooh, that's so literary!

Conversely, ever seen/read anything that was made--or even salvaged--by a great ending? Even if the first half or more was tedious, boring, awful, painful, did the ending at least make you forgive the story, if not outright love it? A couple examples of movies with much better second halves that come to mind for me are THE SPANISH PRISONER and KISS OF THE SPIDER-WOMAN. Has this ever happened to you? With what?

Your answers just might make it into the new monologue I'm composing. I'm actually considering maybe trying to do this as a podcast or a multi-part web video, trying to expand my creative horizons. Assuming I can find a sound/video editor to help me out.

Comments

[mirthical.livejournal.com]

Artificial Intelligence. Should have ended with the little boy frozen and pleading with the Blue Fairy.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Good call! Great one, in fact! If it weren't for the Speilbergian tacked-on ending, that film might actually be remembered far more fondly. I still think there was enough good in that film that it may be looked upon with more respect in the years to come, as a noble failure if nothing else.

I have a fondness for noble failures, just because they at least took risks. I'll take them over safe successes any day.

[skalja.livejournal.com]

This has got to be the classic example, hasn't it?

[civilbloodshed.livejournal.com]

Sleepaway Camp. Dear sweet lord.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Presumably you mean a great ending, right? Shit, that might well be the only shitty movie saved by its last fifteen seconds.

[civilbloodshed.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, definitely. I watched it at a party because it was bad enough not to get people too interested, but my God as soon as the reveal was on screen everyone in the room stopped what they where doing and starred in horror. I think it counts as a double surprise twist, actually. I mean, 1.) it's a good twist story-wise, and 2.) jfc I did not expect such a scary ending from such a bad movie.

[mirthical.livejournal.com]

hahaha, Super Mario Bros. 2!

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

You mean the "it was all a dream" ending?

interesting question.

[sabine42.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this would be saving the film, as I love the whole thing, but in terms of making the movie, or at least the final impression, the last shot of Sliding Doors, which for many people was just too cheesy, for me just repeated the movie's ultimate positive outlook on fate taking you where you're meant to be....eventually.

Oh, but ending that ruined something? At least as far as books go, Edith Wharton's The House of Mirth. I love her writing. And I absolutely adored her main character for two-thirds the book. But I don't know if she was just not yet strong enough in her own voice that she succumbed to much of the writing of the era or what, but it felt forced and extremely frustrating that after spending so much of the story fighting against the societal norms and expectations she criticized, her character would suddenly succumb to the age's need to "punish" characters that lived outside the rules. VERY frustrating ending, I sent the book back the Book Thing immediately.

[nectarousness.livejournal.com]

Fight Club. The movie. The ending worked better in the book.

Annnnd, uh, The Dark Knight.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I've never read the book, and it's been many years since I saw the film, but it was my understanding that many--if not most--prefer the movie's ending, Pixies song and all. Interesting.

And needless to say, word to TDK. It doesn't ruin the film for me, but it definitely hinders my enjoyment. Hey, so, I just bought the novelization of the Burton BATMAN movie, which has some neat Harvey tidbits.

[icewolf010.livejournal.com]

Without a question, Tess of the D'Ubervilles. I know it's a product of its time, social equality didn't mean gender equality, Hardy was a social pioneer of his day, yadda yadda yadda, but wow was some heartbreakingly beautiful prose just completely ruined for me by that yutz Angel.

[heykidzcomix.livejournal.com]

I think In Bruges was salvaged by its ending--won't spoil how, unless you've seen it, but what had been Just OK really picked up (and started getting funnier, too) once Ralph Fiennes showed his face.

[nectarousness.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I almost forgot about this movie. I totally agree.

[fiveseconddelay.livejournal.com]

Unbreakable.

How about the category "Would be redeeming if it ended after the first five minutes?"

Idiocracy

"or five seconds?"

Waterworld. (The caps melting on the Universal logo globe was cool.)

[philippos42.livejournal.com]

I think Sliding Doors is almost saved by its last line.

Have you ever read Tezuka's Phoenix stories? Nostalgia is weird, in that he introduces a sort of devil character to screw everything up by the end, because things were going too well.

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

The Ring. It was a pretty good movie throughout, but the ending was what kept it from being like a feature-length episode of the X-Files. You think it's come to a neat, uncomplicated conclusion with a nice little moral message (killing children is wrong!) and you think it's like every other okay horror movie, and then NO EVERYTHING IS STILL HORRIFYING AHHH.

J-Horror movies in general tend to be good examples of this, for me - Pulse was awesome, for example, but the last ten minutes just seemed to lose energy, perhaps because all the characters were just giving up or resigning themselves to their fates, and it didn't really maintain the quiet, intense creepiness of the movie up until that point.

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

How about books? Or non-fiction works?

The book Cunt by Inga Muscio is a good example of this - the second edition, specifically. The original text of the book is interesting, but it was written at a time when trans issues weren't really being discussed at all in feminist circles, and so the book was unintentionally really exclusionary towards trans woman. In the second edition of the book, the text is expanded to include an addendum Inga added years later, about trans inclusion in the feminist movement and how fucked shit like the MWMF was.

Similarly - you've read War In The Neighborhood, yes? I found it really interesting how Tobocman's view of women's issues within the anarchist/activist/squatters communities is somewhat dismissive and minimizing (not intentionally, but still - his view basically amounts to, "Oh, well, I know that's wrong but it's not worth really getting involved in", especially when the women ask him to back them up at the ABC squat), until the story about Joan and her abusive ex towards the end, when domestic violence actually affects someone close to him. After that, he's more attentive to instances of sexism within his community, and the women in his comics are portrayed with more sympathy than they are earlier. (This kind of evolution takes place all throughout War In The Neighborhood, but especially in regards to Tobocman's views of the women around him.)

Both got me to look at the books as a whole in an entirely new light, although they weren't so much plot points as they were indicative of the authors' evolving sympathies and politics.

I'm not sure if that counts at all, or if that's anything like what you're looking for.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

It's not quite what I had in mind, but it's still a neat point to keep in mind. I have War In The Neighborhood by my chair in my room, and I often find myself going back to it.

Hey, question: where should I start with getting into the Hawks? There's a great used book sotre here that has a lot of the Hawkworld issues, as well as the mini. I didn't realize Ostrander wrote the series! That's enough right there to clinch my interest!

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

I often find myself going back to my copy, too, years after I first read it. It's a really powerful book. I'm interested to know what your thoughts on it are!

Re: the Hawks, I'd start with the miniseries, just because you might not really know what's going on in the regular series if you pick it up without reading that first (especially why Katar Hol is so goddamn angsty ALL THE TIME. You really need to read the miniseries to understand a lot about his character. Shayera, not so much, as she's really only fleshed out in the regular series) but if you're not stoked on it, DEFINITELY don't let that stop you from picking up the regular series. I know a lot of people who really hated it, but I think they just don't appreciate what an ambitious project it was. It doesn't ALWAYS succeed - and DC wouldn't let Ostrander work with a decent artist, EVER, so all the artwork sucks ass - but it's still generally an interesting read even when it fails, because it really tried to push the limits of what superhero comics were supposed to be about. (Though I'm not going to lie, there are some pretty facepalmy bits in there occasionally.)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not really sure what I think. His style is very propgandistic (is that a word?), which I don't care for generally, and then there's the fact that I don't share his outlook or views in some ways, as you probably imagine. And yet, I keep coming back to it. Maybe because it's such a vivid, striking portrait of a world I've been ignorant about, and even if I don't always share his way of thinking, it still makes me think nonetheless.

Also, have you read "Batman: Run, Riddler, Run?" I just revisited it for the first time in years and had totally forgotten it dealt with themes right out of Tobocman. I can't attest to how faithful a depiction it was, but that was the first time I can recall seeing anything like that at all in the kind of stuff I read.

Cool, I'll pick up some issues then! Heh, if it's really good, I may have to track down other cheapie back issues for you, in case I need to foist 'em upon people who need educatin' about the Hawks. Also, you seen Kyle Baker's Hawkman bits yet?

Did you hear Ostrander may be going blind? God, hopefully he'll be able to get that treatment. It's a shame he's not better appreciated anyway. I just picked up a mini-series he did about a group of average Gotham citizens and their lives... it was so awesome.

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

I have never heard the word "propagandistic" before. Still and all, is his work really less propaganda-tastic than, oh, the Green Lantern books, which are all about imposing a uniform system of laws and values and moral absolutes on vastly different cultures and societies? I feel like a lot of the time when an author is up front about their politics, people jump straight to "OMG PROPAGANDA", although Tobocman doesn't emphasize his own anarchism very much at all in his work and even makes it a point of talking about the different politics of all the people he meets. Which is more than most mainstream writers do. Think about all the weird sexual politics and shit that are in superhero comics - not to mention the moral absolutism in comics like Batman, the emphasis on American=Good that you get from Superman, and so on, and so on. It's still propaganda, it's just less honest about it.

I guess I get a little defensive of Tobocman's work, admittedly, because I really like it and it spoke to me on a lot of levels. I think that when it comes to the kind of politics that arise out of desperation, of being absolutely dehumanized at every turn like a lot of squatters were and are, you can... well, you can disagree, but it just rings hollow to me, because you don't actually know.

HOLY FUCK TANGENT. Perhaps e-mail would be better! And yay, some issues. There's a specific issue I'm thinking of, but I can't remember what number it was - it doesn't really matter, and we can talk more about it when you've read some because I don't want to completely spoil the series for you. But thanks!

OH, and re: Ostrander, SHIT. I hadn't heard that. That sucks. He's one of the best mainstream comics writers around, and one of the most decent, kind people in comics, period.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

The likening of his work to propaganda hadn't occurred to me explicitly until I read a review of his latest work in the recent issue of The Comics Journal. He uses overt propaganda imagery, as activists would use in posters and whatnot, which makes since as he designs such things, does he not?

I knew this would be something of a minefield to bring up, since as you point out, more subtle forms of manipulation and propagranda are rampant. But I was speaking purely about his artistic style more than anything else, which can as bluntly unsubtle as it is powerful. But then there are things like drawing devil's horns on Koch, which strikes me as unnecessary when the villainy of his actions in those pieces is apparent enough. What I like about Tobocman's work is how complex and human he makes his characters, for the most part. They feel like real people, rather than flat symbols like many of the oppressors who sometimes feel like oppressors and nothing else. But then, it's not their story, I know.

Again, Laura, all I can say is that it has made me think, it still does, and it still will over the years. Because I do know that I don't know, but I'm trying to keep an open mind and work on my own self-awareness (and awareness of the world around me) one day at a time.

Heh, maybe I should have just said, "eh, it's pretty good." ;)

Rock, then I'll get the mini at least, plus maybe the first ten issues or something. They don't have a full set after that. Ooh, I should try to find some Suicide Squad issues too, to really get a full Ostrander experience. People like Warren Eliis have been spreading awareness of Ostrander's glaucoma, so hopefully he'll get the help for treatment he needs. What a horrible prospect for a writer, to lose your vision.

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

Oh please, like you would have been capable of "eh, it's pretty good". Dude, it's not like I dragged you into this conversation!

And I mean, if you'll recall, Tobocman also draw devil horns on himself. His work is heavy on visual symbolism because using signifiers like that is an effective way of portraying complex concepts in simple yet evocative ways - it's a propaganda tactic, but does that make it propaganda? The goal of propaganda is to tell people what to think, usually through oversimplifying things and obfuscating the truth. Tobocman's work does the opposite - it points out the complexities that are often overlooked by mainstream media sources, and brings attention to the realities of situations that we usually only see one side of - the side with enough money to get their side told.

Also, as to the role of the oppressors being simplified - well, you're right, it's not their story. If you want their story, you can turn on the news. You can see Tobocman's exclusion of it as propaganda - and that's a valid interpretation. But so is the interpretation that Tobocman is a prolific artist with limited resources and he's not interested in using those resources to tell stories that are already ingrained in most peoples' consciousness...es.

Blah. You seem a bit defensive, and that makes me sad, because I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm not even trying to be argumentative. I just honestly like Tobocman's work and I know precious few other people who both a) have ever read a comic of his ever and b) are totes up for in-depth analysis of work just because they think it's NEAT. So when that happens I am like "FUCK YES LET'S GO RIGHT NOW."

I don't mean to be confrontational. Just eager! And perhaps a bit contradictory, because that's how I roll.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Sorry, defensiveness is my general mode these days. Another thing I'm trying to work on. I just knew you liked Tobocman and was worried about an honest answer, considering some disagreements we've had in the past. Also, I am just plain hesitant to really discuss such things and express thoughts when, as you point out, I just don't know. ... Man, I'm being defensive about being defensive.

Also, that mmmmmmmay also have something to do with my emotional state out here in Winnipeg, where I'm in a very special state of being on edge spiked with exhaustion as the final weekend is ramping up.

So yes! No fighting! I like this plan. Especially if it can involve Hawkman comics and pie! By which I mean, I want some pie. But yeah, I totally get your eagerness, and don't wanna be a damper on that! If nothing else, it's interesting for me to hear your insight in the book, as I don't know ANYone else who's read it!

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

Aw. It's okay. Caaallllllm down, everyone's still friends.

I made some pie earlier this week, but it's all gone now. It wasn't that good, to be honest. I'd never made pie before.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Also, going to bed now, so I'll check back in online tomorrow afternoon or so!

[angrylemur.livejournal.com]

Too and also: I used to have a bunch of issues of the old Ostrander series, but I've lost them all in my multiple fucking moves around Vancouver. I'd really like to get my hands on some again! I dunno, maybe when you are done with them I can give you some cash for shipping and you can send them to me? I have a thing I've been meaning to write FOREVERZ (on the evolution of gender relations as exemplified by the evolution of the Hawk characters' relationships) but it's hard to do without any of the old Hawkworld comics, which are kind of the crux of it.

[swimpenguin.livejournal.com]

I remember reading Lord of the Rings in middle school and thinking the Scouring of the Shire-"ok, thematically-no innocence can remain forever with the passing of ages-strong, but NOOO, those poor hobbits!"
hey, the end of House of Sand and Fog was trying to show us the life is utterly tragic and doooomed ;)

[stubbleupdate.livejournal.com]

I was generally enjoying reading Atonement until the end, which just seemed like a massive slap in the face to the reader.

"You just read over 400 pages of my story and guess what! LOL!"

I was furious.

[fragmentedsky.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd have to disagree - no matter how much that ending fucked with the head, it was kind of the point. If the story had not had that twist, it would have been beautiful, but I would have put it down and gone "...and?" Usually, when that particular trick (or variation thereof) is pulled, it's a cheap gimmick. In Atonement it was not necessarily new, but it gave the story a centralized element that otherwise would have been lacking.

[fragmentedsky.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Alive in Necropolis, Soon I Will Be Invincible, and The Historian were books that had me absolutely fixated and then when they ended I kinda went ...that's it? Really? That was what you were gearing up for? Although SIWBI is less guilty than the other two. If I remember correctly. I don't know. I feel like I have a zillion answers to this question but it's been a long week so my brain's being a dud. Check back later.

[the-mithril-man.livejournal.com]

Don't know about Movies right off the bat but the whole last issue of Wanted gave me this feeling. As for books the ending of Peter Pan, I remember just always depressing the hell out of me as a kid.

[woe-in-a-hoodie.livejournal.com]

I feel that Charade (the one with Grant and Hepburn) kind of flailed around until the last ten or so minutes. I know it's constructed to have the Big Reveal be earth-shattering and all that, but I had almost zero interest in the characters - despite the excellent acting - up until the end. It succeeds in saving itself, though, and when I look back on the film after seeing the end I realise that the whole thing was awesome and I conveniently missed it.

The 2005 Hitchhiker's Guide, in my opinion, was ruined by its last couple of scenes. I was totally cool with the adaptation until it went all shmoopy and let's-tack-on-some-romance. I know further along in the written in the series Arthur and Trillian end up kind of together but not really, but still. Excessive feel-good smarm is excessive.
(It seems silly to nitpick about that, since the series is one of the most re-adapted pieces of fiction in the past fifty years...)

1972's Horror Express, a ridiculously bad B-movie with two excellent actors (Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing) has an almost nonsensical beginning. After everyone's on the train Victorian pseudo-science starts getting pulled out of everyone's asses, however, dinosaurs, laser eyeballs, whorish jewel thieves and Russian zombie Jesus-impersonators make sterling appearances and it becomes the most cracktastically awesome thing in the universe. Also, despite the viewer's initial skepticism about the fear-worthiness of the monster, it's really rather hair-raising in a number of scenes.

I salute you, sir, for having seen The Spanish Prisoner. I've never met someone else who's seen it! Am I the only one who thinks that Rebecca Pidgeon's character was a seething pile of awkward creepiness? My skin was definitely crawling during all of her scenes.

[jackolantern.livejournal.com]

At least up to and including Cryptonomicon, it's absolutely true that Neal Stephenson really doesn't know how to do an ending. Also, I thought that the last volume of Stephen King's Dark Tower series was anticlimactic from the big fight at the Breakers' compound forward--several hundred pages, in other words--although there were some interesting bits in there.

[dormsquirrel.livejournal.com]

I know everyone loves Neil Gaiman and wants to bear his children, but the end of American Gods was pretty terrible. I don't know how you could create a satisfying ending to a novel like that, but he had all these balls in the air, and then he just decided, screw it: The end!

[cyberghostface.livejournal.com]

Funny, the guy who wrote House of Sand and Fog is going to be teaching my Creative Writing class this year.