Never rub another man's rhubarb!

[thehefner]

Holy crap, but turning your TV color settings to black and white makes Tim Burton's BATMAN movie ten times more awesome than it ever was. Good call, bitemetechie!

Watching this with Mom, she put it best: "Why the hell wasn't it always like this???" It just all fits so well, especially in the scenes were you see the architecture and set design of Anton Furst's Gotham. I used to feel like those looked dated and stagey, but in B&W, it becomes a true classic throwback to German Expressionist cinema. Seriously, speaking as someone who has fallen entirely out of love with the Burton films over the years, just the simple act of changing color settings on my TV has reinvigorated the entire viewing experience.

Not to say that it's a still a good movie. Egad, no. Maybe having it edited as a silent film, accompanied by just Danny Elfman's amazing soundtrack and give it the full Fritz Lang/F.W. Murnau treatment, thereby playing to the film's true strengths without the distractions of things like the Prince soundtrack and Vicki Vale.

Ugh, god, how did any of us stand Basinger's character? She's worse than Katie Holmes' Rachel Dawes. She's so insufferably vapid and shrieky, it's hard to believe that three characters (Bruce, Joker, and Knox) are infatuated with her. Also, when she's not screaming, she's making quick little yelps like a chihuahua. Anyone else notice this?

Man, Michael Keaton's career never recovered from these films, did it? The guy was magnificent, a powerhouse of intense mad energy, but ever since these films, he's been... where? I honestly don't know! He deserved better. Even if, whatever it was he was playing here, it wasn't Bruce Wayne nor Batman. He plays Bruce like a shifty awkward nerd who can't even talk to girls, like a creepier version of Christopher Reeve's bumbling Clark Kent. And his Batman... well, Batman doesn't kill, plain and simple.

Burton's BATMAN films--especially BATMAN RETURNS--have always worked best as films about the director's own visions. If they were about original characters, I might well enjoy them more than I do. Or maybe not. Maybe I never would be able to take the style over the substance, or the lack thereof, but god damn if watching 'em in black and white doesn't go a long way to help. Maybe someday, I'll try it on RETURNS and see if it bestows some beauty onto that unremittingly ugly film.

Also, every single second Billy Dee Williams was on screen as Harvey, I thought, "Never before has heartwrenching homicidal angst been so smoooooth."

Comments

[tragical-mirth.livejournal.com]

Once upon a time I had a book of artwork from the movie with lots of sketches of the buildings (because architecture is my porn). A lot of the set designs were based on real pieces of architecture, most of it art deco. It is long gone, though, and not even from the most recent move.

As for Michael Keaton, I seem to remember him taking quite a few years off after that and spending his money. At one point, he took up reining (an equestrian event) and was competing at it, though I never saw him in person. (Nor did I ever see Shatner either despite living about 10 miles from his farm. I DID however see Patrick Swayze a few times.) Then he seems to have started taking shit roles in shitty second tier movies.

Felt the same way about Kim Basinger after watching it this spring for the first time in years followed up by LA Confidential. I love LA Confidential, but I look at it now, and I ask myself how is *she* the only one that got an Oscar out of this? Agh.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Oooh, how neato. Very sad that Furst committed suicide, and apparently over Beverly D'Angelo.

Keaton deserves way better. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed MULTIPLICITY and his role in EXTREME MEASURES was easily the only worthwhile thing about that film, but still, where's the dynamo who played Beetlejuice?

Y'know, L.A. CONFIDENTIAL is one of my all-time favorite films, but I haven't seen it in years. Now I'm curious and fearful of what I'll notice in Basinger's performance that I missed. During BATMAN, I was thinking, "Man, much like Michelle Pfeiffer in SCARFACE onward, maybe Kim got more talented (and for that matter, hotter) as time went on?" Mmmmaybe not. But even so, man, nothing for Crowe or Pearce?! A crime!

[nectarousness.livejournal.com]

"Never before has heartwrenching homicidal angst been so smoooooth."

That and my mind makes me picture Harvey drinking Colt 45.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

BLAM BLAM.

"Twin .45s. Works every time."

Very interesting take on the matter....

[lillaluv.livejournal.com]

I'll have to try it out like that...

For me, Nolan's Batman movies are by far the best....Burton is a director that is by far too stylistically inclined to delve into someone else's world and let it speak for itself. Instead, he made such an effort to mold it and merge it with his own asthetic. Burton is one of the few directors who's work is instatnly recognizable not only to people that study and obsess with film, but the layman as well. It doesn't make for a good director for an already established mileau.

And then there's the cartoonishness of Batman Forever and Batman and Robin....I perfer the graphic novel approach, thanks.

But it should be an interesting stylistic approach to watch them as suggested. Thanks for the tip.

Re: Very interesting take on the matter....

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Have you seen the animated series? Ever since I rewatched it last year, I've come to the conclusion that the very best Batman movie ever made, better than even the Nolan ones, is BATMAN: MASK OF THE PHANTASM. Here's why, if you're so inclined.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

To be fair, Robert Wuhl is full of fail in everything that he does, so it makes sense that his character would spend his time sniffing Vicki Vale's panties.

One of the biggest problems with Superman-as-archetype is that it seems to have cemented certain ideas about superheroes' girlfriends, which is why we have so many fifth-rate Lois Lane knockoffs, both in the comics and in other media.

It's clear that Burton's sympathies kind of lie with the Gothic clown, rather than with the stern-faced Man in Black trying to bring him down (anyone surprised by this has never seen another Burton film EVER), but what's funny is that Nolan actually makes the Chaos vs. Order dynamic much more explicit, and yet, his Joker is also more openly acknowledged as horrific.

It's also worth noting that action movie morals don't really hold with the idea of recurring villains, which is why most superhero films end with the bad guys dying at the end, even though that's an incredibly bad practice for a franchise.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Makes sense. At the risk of summoning him by invoking him name, where he hell has Whul been since ARLISS (fuck the dollar signs)? *googles* Apparently doing... one-man shows? Oh god help my art form...

It's kind of strange to me, as I could easily see Burton's sympathy being with Batman too, with a bit of tweaking to Batman's character. The lonely weirdo dressing up in black to live out his fantasies, there's some rich potential for Burton sympathies there. That said, thank god he never made that movie. Bad enough we have DeVito's Penguin to contend with.

Which is funny to consider, as the 80's were the golden era of sequelitis, were they not? For a movie that was so utterly tailored around JACK JACK JACK, the fact that they wouldn't even leave the door open for his return strikes me as magnificently bone-headed.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

What's really sad is, DeVito really is the best candidate to play the Penguin, but Burton fucking RUINED it. DeVito ALREADY played the Penguin, just not by name - ever see Other People's Money? THAT'S HIM. The entire POINT of the Penguin is that, while the Joker or Catwoman or whoever is fighting Batman, Oswald Cobblepot is fighting BRUCE WAYNE. He's the nouveau-riche asshole who represents everything wrong with rich businessmen, just as much as Bruce Wayne is The Good Rich Businessman.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I will make it a point to finally check out OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY with this in mind, because that's a rather intriguing portrait you paint. Me, I've always been fond of the Penguin who's an eloquent, theatrical type who plays being the gentleman's gentleman but is really a vicious little bastard. My point is, I love Paul Williams III.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

"I'm not your BEST friend. I'm your ONLY friend."

[jcsbimp.livejournal.com]

Burton seemed at that time to be making his female protagonists give out odd little yelps. Take note of some of the sounds that come out of Geena Davis's mouth in "Beetlejuice". Just an affectation of that particular director in that particular period, sort of like Baz Luhrman's tendency to make his male protagonists bawl like babies ("Moulin Rouge", "Romeo+Juliet").

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Oh god, Geena totally did, didn't she? Or maybe that's just the effect Michael Keaton has on women. I don't even want to consider the implications.

[swimpenguin.livejournal.com]

My love of Batman Returns is pretty much rooted in my belief of it being a great gothic melodrama about two doomed lovers (one dresses up as a bat, the other as a cat),and the ultimate neglected/f'ed up child (with flipper hands) who tries to punish the world. And penguins blowing stuff up with rocket launchers, and not thinking of it as a Batman movie.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I just can't separate it in my mind yet. Maybe watching it in black and white will help. It might be the CABINET OF DR. CALIGARI to the first Batman's METROPOLIS.

[jackolantern.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, it's almost in black and white already. It's all about snow and Penguin and Catwoman being nearly as pale as cave fish. And, of course, Christopher Walken in a fright wig.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Totally. I bet it'd work even better in full B&W, maybe edited with old film graininess and silent film pacing thrown in. Take it full CALIGARI.

[the-mithril-man.livejournal.com]

Personally I wanted to see Keaton as Gordon. Drop the 'stache on him and I think he could give Gary Oldman a run for his money. I like the idea of all three, Gordon, Dent and Batman being the only three guys who could possibly do what they did. Each one is wound pretty tight, and you have to be damn near crazy to be the lone honest cop in Gotham. Always liked Miller's fight between Gordon and Flass shame we've never seen it on the screen.
I've long held the belief Burton can't do anything that isn't blank enough to put his own stamp on. The more vague the source material the better off he is. If it's his own creation I simply can't watch it, I find myself wondering if I can somehow reach behind the camera of the movie and dump Burton's books. He turned the Penguin into a child murderer, I feel I'm justified in my want there. Always liked Chuck Dixon's take on him, He's old money & privilege run amok.

As always Heff thanks for the Mask of The Phantasm love, warms my heart. As for Robert Whul? Check out "Assume the Position", I wish I had history teachers that good.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I would be most curious to see that take, so long as it's just an alternate take on the character. Personally, I love that Gordon is the only sane one of the bunch, or at least the sanest. He strikes me as very much a guy out of time from the old west, like Gary Cooper in HIGH NOON. The model of strength and civility in a wild, lawless frontier.

Good call on Burton. Honestly, I wish he would go back to doing wholly original visions rather than messing with adaptations. I didn't realize I could be violently apathetic, but damn if everything involving Burton's ALICE IN WONDERLAND hasn't blazed that new trail for me.

[the-mithril-man.livejournal.com]

I almost think Gordon is the sane one by default. His buddy the DA got half his face burned off, went nuts and now commits crimes based on the number two. In really nice suits. The other one Started as a guy in an armored bat suit. Gordon really has no choice but to be the sane one. He was the only one left. One of his best moments is his "By the book" line in Killing Joke.

On Burton, I just think he keeps doing all this stuff hoping Jonny Depp will ask him to the prom. Timmy, it's not happening, give it up.

[gnort.livejournal.com]

I still think Keaton's the best live action Batman to date. He got the whole demeanor down. While he didn't have the physical look, he was still pretty intimidating just from his attitude and the fact that used a voice that didn't sound forced to the point of goofiness.

While the movies were definitely more Burton movies than Batman, he did at least have a somewhat solid understanding of how the characters worked and interacted. People complained that Joker killed Bruce's parents but I understood why he did it. He also nailed the bruce/selina dynamic. He also got Alfred perfectly. Much as I love the Caine and TAS takes on Pennyworth, Gough was freakin perfect.

While it's probably true that Burton was just trying to make Batman more "badass" by killing people, I've heard some justify it by saying that Batman didn't always have that one rule. I've seen scans where he and robin would mow down nazis with miniguns with a big smile on their face (ya know, for kids!) so it was possibly a throwback. As someone stated above, movies and comics are two different mediums, so killing the bad guy is more understandable given the lack of serial nature.

I still, to this day, wonder what Williams' Two-Face would've been like. I wish he had gotten more screentime. They could've had him come back in Returns (not in Schrek's role mind you but still acting as DA while showing glimpses of the dark underbelly of his psyche). Then when Two-Face showed up in Forever (still played by Billy Dee) it would've made more sense and carried some actual weight as opposed to just paying lip service to it.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

You're not me and don't connect with it the way I do, but there is something to "returns" that just rips me in half when I watch it.

[bitemetechie.livejournal.com]

One day, John, I will properly, eloquently defend the Keaton Batman in such a convincing way that you will have no choice but to fall to your knees and beg his forgiveness.

Also, Prince.

It may break your soul and you may never recover from tehe burny, burny cheesy-eighties-tastic-ness, but I will relish your defeat just the same. Relish, I say!

I may even go so far as to ketchup and mustard it. I'll do it. I'm craaaazy.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I enjoy it the way I enjoy Jack's Joker: on its own terms. NOT as anything close to a faithful version of the characters from the comics.

Do you know when/if you're coming in or not, girl? I still haven't heard back about housing for Indianapolis yet. I dunno what the deal is there.

[bitemetechie.livejournal.com]

I just sent you an e-mail with the details. The past week has been like...you really wouldn't believe all the stuff I had to do just to get to a computer with working internet. Crimney. Who the hell closes ALL the libraries, university AND public, for renovations/computer upgrades/what-the-hell-ever-else at the same time? Zombie Jesus.

[bitemetechie.livejournal.com]

(Also, if you watch Batman Returns in B&W without me, I may never forgive you.)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I might not watch it ever anyway, so don't worry about that! ;p