Ta-daaaaaa! It's... gone!

[thehefner]

Man, two weeks later, and people are *still* commenting on my criticisms of THE DARK KNIGHT and Harvey in general. If you go there, you'll find several people with critiques and analysis almost as long-winded as my own, not arguments or even heated debate but rather thoughtful, reasoned discussion pretty much all-around. And I swear, I can't think of any point where any other film has provoked so much thoughtful discussion (whether positive or negative) from so many people, especially here from my friends(-list).

But I don't take this as commentary on the "brilliance" of THE DARK KNIGHT, joining in on the chorus of critics and fans who are hailing it as "Oh thank god, we finally have ART in a mainstream movie!" Rather, I keep feeling it's more indicative of mainstream pop entertainment in general, that we don't have enough popular films on average to even reaching these heights of discussability. And/or the films that we do have, not enough people see, so we can't/don't/won't discuss "art" like this on a regular basis.

Shit, when I saw THERE WILL BE BLOOD, no one I knew wanted to have a long, analytical examination about the film and its themes, about whether Daniel Plainview was truly evil or tragically sympathetic, whether the film was truly about oil or family. For that, I had to go to my mother and then join an LJ community comprised of squealing fangirls who write in all caps and swoon over the chestless moppy wonder of Paul Dano. Clearly, there's something wrong with society.

And really, THE DARK KNIGHT is hardly a perfect film, yet people have been jizzing ever since they saw it, and I fear for many, no amount of reviewing and reconsideration upon repeat viewings will make them stop humping the film's leg to see it as it is.

And maybe it's because of those people that I wince whenever people start hailing it as "art," implicitly or explicitly proclaiming that it's the first time superhero films have achieved a status higher than escapist popcorn fare. I don't even know where to begin with that.

Like, is THE DARK KNIGHT really that un-Hollywood-y as we seem to think? Is it really different from or superior to, say, IRON MAN, which actually seriously honestly was arguably as epic and deep as THE DARK KNIGHT, but people didn't notice that because it wasn't all dark and angsty? Are these people being condescending to other such films, or is this pointing towards a certain kind of geek who wants to see their fandoms depicted in only the most serious, somber fashion, because they're still insecure about loving "immature" fare?

I don't know where to start, and frankly, my brain is not with me, so have some links.



First of all, leave it to the lovely lovedatjoker to rather perfectly sum up (and exceed) my thoughts on Heath Ledger's Joker and whether or not he truly is the "definitive" take on the character. Like her, I fear that we'll be seeing far too many airheaded fools embracing Heath and only Heath's take as the one true holy perfect take, imbuing it in everywhere from comics to fanfic to cosplay. And as awesome and rich as Heath's performance was, it says something about Joker when I say it would severely limit the character to reduce him to that one take.



Finally, as I mentioned in my critiques, I found certain elements of THE DARK KNIGHT's ending to be somewhat... ambiguous. People are still arguing whether or not... certain things happened.

Well, for those who do know what I'm talking about and don't mind SPOILERS... allow me to point you towards this and then this, specifically producer Emma Thomas' comments.

Told ya. Now all they have to do is run with it, if they want. Fingers seriously fucking crossed they do. If they do, and if they handle it correctly, it could well assuage a few of those complaints I had and make THE DARK KNIGHT even better as a result.

Maybe then I might finally join in on the "art"gasms.

Comments

[mirthical.livejournal.com]

I don't remember when you sent me the list of most popular/most beloved superheroes (nor do I recall who actually put together the list), but I do remember that Superman and Batman were at the tippy top of that list. (of course, now I forget who was #1, and whether we argued about why that person deserved to be #1, or why the person in #2 should have been #1)

Anyway.

I think the fact that Batman is such a beloved character for so wide an audience makes this movie something so many people want to talk about and dissect. Everybody knows who Batman is, we've already had a history with Batman (in one form or another), and so while our standards are high, we WANT to love this movie. And we're loyal to the character of Batman, because he is so familiar and so dear.

The interesting thing about this latest reboot is it hasn't yet become established as the franchise that people will see even when they doubt the movie's quality. (George Lucas, I'm looking in your direction.) To those franchises, it's an obligation on the fan's part to watch the latest movie, in an attempt to relive the great beginnings. I think a/the third Nolan movie is going to be worth watching, sure, but I don't feel like a captured fan that has some kind of obligation to see it. I sort of felt that way with Batman Forever and Batman and Robin - I knew going into the theater that they weren't going to be "good" movies, but my loyalty to Batman got me in the seat anyway. I definitely felt obligated with the newest Star Wars trilogy, and had pangs about not seeing the latest Indiana Jones movie for the same reason - it felt traitorous not to watch.

Remember our conversation about how contemporary American fiction seems to be working under the assumption that happiness and pleasantry is the opiate of the masses, and that "real" art lies in cynicism and tragedy? I think this is the same reason why so many argue that TDK is a superior film to Iron Man. An uplifting story is passe, man. Hope is out of fashion.

(haha, maybe Obama will usher in a new, more cheerful wave of fiction with his campaign?)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure which list this was. I remember once, way back before you and I met, Wizard Magazine (the E! channel of superhero comics, ugh), they narrowed it down to Superman (the classic superhero with powers), Batman (the classic superhero without powers), Spider-Man (the everyman), and Wolverine (the antihero), giving the overall prize to Spider-Man based on powers, abilities, costume, etc. Those kinds of lists are always minefields, and no matter what, it usually amounts to apples and oranges. How can you compare four archetypes and say that any one is better than the others?

Hope-based stories... god, what will happen when those become as abused and overdone as the cynical crushed-idealist stories that currently flood our bookshelves and stages?

[rab62.livejournal.com]

From the IGN article:

"Ra's may have had a Lazarus pit in the comics, but we don't see Nolan resorting to such comic book gimmickry to bring him back."

Yeah, because God forbid a movie about Batman fighting costumed villains ever resorted to lowly comic book ideas. (headdesk)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

God, totally. Pin-pointing a perfect example of what I was talking about when I wondered, "Are these people being condescending to other such films, or is this pointing towards a certain kind of geek who wants to see their fandoms depicted in only the most serious, somber fashion, because they're still insecure about loving 'immature' fare?"

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

You should see the way it's been hitting Harley Quinn. :(

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've been following on your LJ. Hurts my soul, but not as much as I know it hurts yours. Times like this I'm actually kind of glad my boy Harvey's getting ignored under the all-encompassing shadow of Heath!Joker, so we don't have all the asshats doing to him what they're doing to Mr. J and Harley.

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

Still there's a fair amount of Joker/Harvey slash! The slash is really taking off.

But OMG what they're doing to Harley... and Mistah J... and all the OCs!! argggggggg.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Well of course there is. Ugh, kill me now. No, wait, hold off till I finish my novel so people can really see the character, and THEN kill me to save me from the slash.

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

I love the Vargas-esque image!! also, all these n00bs are really hung up on 'realism'. Im sorry, but when have realistic and comics every gone together?? yeesh.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Like I said, those people hung up on realism are just thoroughly insecure about stuff they think on some level is silly kids' stuff and want to validate their feelings by making it "mature."

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

Totally. And that's lametastic. Making Harley this sour dour "mature" character with piercings and torn fishnets doesn't actually make her better.

(psssst - this is the part where you tell me how awesome my icon is too btw)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Oh is it so? I had no idea. Welp, I'll remember it for future reference, next time it comes up. ;)

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

:P

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Say, I forget if you've done it yet, but will we be seeing an analysis of "Going Sane," now that it's finally out in trade? I showed it to Bloo some time ago, and she liked it but thought it felt more like Joker in a Two-Face story.

Hey, awesome icon! Sexy too!

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

ha VERY cute buster :P

oh yeah GS is on the list. It just came out this past week didn't it? I think it's a great story. I'm not sure I feel he's obsessed with Batman to that degree, but it's lovely for so many reasons.

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

I also wish they'd revisit Rebecca. even do a story with Harley and Rebecca and some sort of conflict. ultimately J would chose Harley of course, as he's not Joseph, he may even kill Rebecca but it'd be nice

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Have you read the JUSTICE LEAGUE issue with Hal Jordan as the Spectre, where J'onn took Hal on a tour inside a certain someone's diseased brain to make a point?

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

I haven't read it but I am familiar with it... I'm rather gleefully catching up on all the gaps in my collection at the moment so I'll get there soon for sure.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Because if you're going to talk about "Going Sane," it's imperative that you find that issue. J.M. Dematteis wrote it as well, and so far as I've seen, it's the only time he or anyone else has referred back to that storyline. When you see it, you'll know what I mean.

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

I've seen scans of the page in question so I know what you're referring to but I'll have to actually get the entire issue for context... it'd be nice if they were a little more committed to past events than affected characters other than the main heroes

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Sadly, so often it's like the only people who pay attention to the stories that came before are the writers who wrote them in the first place.

[heykidzcomix.livejournal.com]

I thought TWBB was a farce. I liked it, but am I wrong in that?

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

If that's wrong, I wouldn't want to be right. Amy Sedaris went on Letterman recently and said she'd seen the movie, like, seven times, and Letterman was like, "Why?! Isn't that depressing?!" Tons of people feel drained and crushed and depressed afterward. Those are not my people. Anybody who doesn't come out of that movie with a big smile on their face isn't anybody I can really have a long-term friendship with.

[heykidzcomix.livejournal.com]

OK, good. Because the finale made me laugh my ass off. Death Goes Bowling? COME ON, THAT'S MARVELOUS.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

My god yes it so absolutely is! *flings bowling ball* "I AM THE THIRD REVELATION! IIIIIIIII AM THE THIRD REVELATION! I TOOOOOLD YOU I WOULD EAT YOUUUU!" You bet I was laughing my ass off too, totally out of evil love for the film. People who don't love that are just joyless souls.

[heykidzcomix.livejournal.com]

For some reason I kept thinking of the Reno 911! skit with the naked crackhead screaming, "I AM FROM THE FEWCHA!" It was a pretty great mashup in my head.

I didn't expect to be rooting for the evil oil tycoon, but damn if I didn't enjoy watching him beat that churchy prick to death. Though I wish he'd been able to drag him out of the closet first. Oh well. SEQUEL? :D

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

I'm just posting here to geek out about the new watchmen posters - OMG!

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I love 'em. Totally love 'em. I'm still very apprehensive about the film, but at the same time, I'm starting to get very annoyed with the people who are ready to completely dismiss it sight-unseen.

[princessebee.livejournal.com]

I'm crazy for the Sally Jupiter one!!!

Yeah I'm excited for it!

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Didja see this, by FABLES cover artist James Jean?

http://aintitcool.com/node/37551