my favorite Two-Face story ever, plus a great interview with Greg Rucka

[thehefner]

In the first Two-Face Tuesday post since Fresno three weeks ago, I've posted what I consider to be the definitive Harvey Dent story, my gold standard for everything related to this character up at about_faces.

I strongly resisted the urge to just post the whole damn thing here too. Besides being my favorite Two-Face comic, it's just plain one of my favorite comics period, Batman or otherwise. If you haven't read it, I urge you to check it out.

As a side note, I'm really pleased with the edit I did for the scanning. I cut out an entire subplot (which is honestly the weakest part of the whole story), and the result is even leaner and tighter than the actual issue.



In other (more general) comic news, Comics Alliance has a fascinating interview with Greg Rucka. Normally I hate interviews because they're all full of pabalum and bullshit, especially in an industry where everyone is so afraid to speak their minds or discuss comics critically in any way but to boost sales. Rucka's is a breath of fresh air on a number of front, from how he talks about Wonder Woman...

Diana – there are people who hate her. I mean, they just hate the concept of a Wonder Woman. They really do. You've seen – I don't even want to call it "fan-based art" – but I'm sure everybody's seen the various images out there. That speaks to something going on. Somebody is real scared of her. He's really afraid of her. And I don't know why. I don't understand where that comes from. So there's that. And people want to simplify her, so they go, she's Superman with tits. Well, no. She's not. It's a completely different background...

... to the ever-present problem of dwindling readership in comics and what should be done about it:

I'd put comics back in the spinner racks and 7-Elevens and grocery stores and Walmart. That's what's killing us. I was talking to Dan DiDio today -- the best-selling Marvel or DC book today is going to sell a quarter of a million. That's nothing, guys. That's nothing. If a TV show has a quarter of a million people watching it, it would not make it through the second episode. It might not even make it through it's first broadcast. I'm serious. I'm not joking.

Look at manga -- it has millions of readers. Europeans comics, in the millions. What the hell is going on in this country with our comics that we can't break out?

I'd sorta fallen out of love with Rucka's with stuff like OMAC PROJECT, but this interview--coupled with his recent work--has reminded me just how much of a loss it is that he's leaving DC for the foreseeable future. And not just because I want my Renee Montoya and Two-Face reunion/rematch, damn it!

Comments

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

I have never seen more of an overpowering male audience drive to "put the bitch in her place" than I have with fan art and fanfic of Wonder Woman. She is ALWAYS being raped into docile submission.

[pokeyburro.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure it's lust, more than fear. The "put in her place" schtick is in making up the stuck-up part, so that there's less guilt afterward. Look at it this way: there's pinup art of her as well. Do you think it sells to the same audience?

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

Look at it this way: there's pinup art of her as well. Do you think it sells to the same audience?

While I'm sure there's some degree of Venn Diagram overlap, to a large extent, no, I don't think they do sell to the same audience, because I'm all about the superhero porn, even to the extent of consensual BDSM, but so much of the stuff featuring Wonder Woman makes me feel like I've waded into crime scene evidence rather than erotica. Even if we assume that Wonder Woman is a virgin (and isn't THAT a creepy assumption that everyone makes), I see no reason why we can't have fun showing her in an enjoyably nasty romp of sweaty, super-powered grinding, WITHOUT Mongul or Ares or Cyborg-Hitler deflowering her against her will.

[pokeyburro.livejournal.com]

You might be right. I suspect there's more overlap than you claim, but it's not really my crowd. (I can't even imagine the union of both sets being more than a million to begin with. Seems like such a niche market. It's hard to measure, since American audiences are so schizophrenic about porn.)

Here's the thing. To write WW, or any established comic book character - hell, I guess this goes for any fanfic in general - as sexual, is usually to write against how the character is portrayed. (If it isn't - e.g., Druuna - then it doesn't really count for my purposes here.) If it's against portrayal, then it's already feeling to the fanfic/fanart creator like they're raping the portrayal anyway, so it's hard to get away from the guilt. So they make up this bit about "putting her in her place". Not all fan creators cope with it this way; that's where the consensual stuff comes from.

I'm just armchair theorizing, though.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

I can't even imagine the union of both sets being more than a million to begin with. Seems like such a niche market.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The American porn market makes nearly a BILLION (that's "billion" with a Carl Sagan "b") more dollars per year than the "legitimate" film industry.

And that's just the high-end on-the-books corporate-produced stuff, which should give you some sense of the size of the subset audiences for fetish-specific stuff.

There's a reason why Rule 34 of the Internet exists.

To write WW, or any established comic book character - hell, I guess this goes for any fanfic in general - as sexual, is usually to write against how the character is portrayed.

Absolutely untrue, to my mind, especially as an ever-increasing number of former fans, who themselves once produced fan art and fanfic of those same characters, become the official custodians of their "canon" portrayals (see also: Russell T. Davies sexing up Doctor Who).

[pokeyburro.livejournal.com]

That's just it. Even if it's $100 billion a year (and I'm skeptical of that figure - seems overreported), I'm not talking about everyone who's ever spent money on porn; I'm talking about just the ones who fetishize comic books enough to spend money on it.

Now juxtapose that with Greg Rucka's remark. Suppose he's right; 250k buyers of the bestseller. If there's ten times that audience for all comics in general, 40% of them would have to be into comics fetish, including the violent stuff.

Again, you might be right - but it seems a bit much, based on my Fermian analysis.

Re: portrayal - isn't WW supposed to be an emissary, feminist figure from her people? Not a sex vamp, though she's drawn that way. I don't know deep details of Marston's depiction, but that's generally what I've seen in all the comics I've happened to read. I find it hard to believe that women in general were all made out as overt sex kittens (the 90s notwithstanding).

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

Even if it's $100 billion a year (and I'm skeptical of that figure - seems overreported)

Seems UNDERreported to me, considering that at least a certain portion of this figure necessarily relies upon consumers admitting to the full extent of their porn purchasing habits.

I'm talking about just the ones who fetishize comic books enough to spend money on it.

This assumes that all comic book porn is produced on a pay-per-pussy-shot basis, when in point of fact, a great deal of it is produced, if not for free, then at least on a promotional basis for the for-pay stuff. Plus, on online comms like WWOEC, fan artists will frequently "pay" one another in the form of "art trades," each doing porn pieces to the other's requests, in lieu of actual cash.

Re: portrayal - isn't WW supposed to be an emissary, feminist figure from her people?

How is that in any way contrary to her having a healthy, active and even *gasp!* raunchy sex life in private?

I don't know deep details of Marston's depiction [...]

Then you really don't know Wonder Woman, because Marston's conception of her, all the way back in the WWII era, was as an OVERT bondage queen, who EXPLICITLY PREACHED sexual submission (among both genders, no less) as a means of achieving universal peace.

[shadowlongknife.livejournal.com]

Even if we assume that Wonder Woman is a virgin (and isn't THAT a creepy assumption that everyone makes), I see no reason why we can't have fun showing her in an enjoyably nasty romp of sweaty, super-powered grinding

THIS.

And I don't buy that she's never had sex, that's a really ridiculous thing that fans have somehow stapled onto her. I have the suspicion most people who think Wonder Woman has never had sex hasn't had sex they haven't payed cash up front for.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

And I don't buy that she's never had sex, that's a really ridiculous thing that fans have somehow stapled onto her. I have the suspicion most people who think Wonder Woman has never had sex hasn't had sex they haven't payed cash up front for.

To be fair, it's been the official party line of DC editorial for quite a while now, to the point that entire in-canon stories have been devoted to it, but I discount those on the grounds that none of Wonder Woman's "creators," outside of William Moulton Marston, are anything more than legally licensed fanfic writers for her, so the only thing that makes their interpretation more valid than mine is that they've been paid for their opinions.

[kingrockwell]

to the point that entire in-canon stories have been devoted to it

Uh, which ones? pretty much every creator who's worked with her i've seen discuss the issue has stated that she isn't, btw

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

By his own admission, the entire reason that Phil Jiminez created Trevor Barnes was to be "the perfect man" to be Diana's sexual first, and pretty much every single creator I can think of who's discussed it has said that she IS a virgin.

[kingrockwell]

Ugh, Trevor. There was nothing perfect about him. Besides, Diana was involved with Rama for a short time before him.

Jimenez is an okay guy, but he's always had funny ideas about things. I know Simone has said and Rucka prolly would say the virgin thing is ridiculous.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

Gail and Greg are shining diamonds of good in a sea of crapulent Fail, when it comes to Diana's portrayal, and I say this as someone who really DIDN'T like Gail's portrayal of Diana's love life, not in the least because there simply was no way to rescue Tom Tresser from the Scrappy heap, and the fact that Gail even tried to do so pretty much ruined her run.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

In fact, here's an article on it, albeit badly out of date by now, that points out what bullshit it is that Diana *has* to stay a virgin.

[pokeyburro.livejournal.com]

I'll have to check out the Dent story as soon as I have time.

I suspect Rucka's exaggerating his point about low comic readership. I'm with him as far as widening the distribution network, if the price is right, but not with comparing comics to a TV show. I'm betting it costs much, much less to distribute a comic book than a TV show. If that comic sells $300,000 worth, but cost only $200,000 to distribute, what's the big deal?

And what single manga sold millions of copies in the year it was released?

Finally, TV requires more viewers because it's not selling DVDs; it's selling ads. How many ads do you want in your comic book? (It might get a lot more readers, and even be higher quality to boot; be careful before you say "zero".)

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

I'm trying and failing to find sales figures for INUYASHA manga, but that right there is a good bet for something that sells crazy huge DC-dwarfing numbers.

And if I had to guess, I'd speculate that comics are pretty much surviving on ads at this point. Much like THE NEW YORKER seems to. I'm not sure at this rate how they could be any more ad-driven than they already are (but I'm sure some enterprising somebody has ideas, especially now that WB has taken a more active hand in DC).

[sara-lakali.livejournal.com]

I'd put comics back in the spinner racks and 7-Elevens and grocery stores and Walmart. That's what's killing us.

Yeah, this was one of the reasons I quit buying comics. I lived in a small town that had no comic shop and I had no car to drive the 30+ miles to the nearest one. At the same time, my address was changing about every six months to a year as I moved into and out of the dorms and various apartments (also, I couldn't keep my same campus PO Box over the summer) so a subscription was out of the question.

The only problem with putting comics in all those outlets is that they're going to have to scale way back on the on-panel violence. They're not going to be able to get those comics in WalMart or the grocery store with brains and guts flying and severed arms and on-panel rape. I just don't see DC going that route in the near future.

[kingrockwell]

Got linked that interview yesterday, and the stuff he says about gender identity, aside from reminding me of similar things Sam Kieth's said, just really clicks with my own feelings. It's not trans, but not quite cis either. Hard to explain, really.

and while i get why you didn't like OMAC Project and a lot of that's still kinda hanging over the whole thing, i'd recommend Checkmate to anyone because it'd really very good

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

It's not just the Max/Beetle thing that irks me about OMAC, it's how everything related to the JLI is messed up. Bad enough they brought back Dimitri expressly to pointlessly kill him off (why can't a nice guy like that just fade into obscurity with his happy family?!), but at least there was the consolation of a JLI reunion to get revenge on Max, which ended up having all the emotional impact of this:



Also, what was up with making Fire a killing machine spy girl? Was that canon? It always kinda bothered me in a similar way that making Mary Marvel dark and evil kinda bothered me, but if it's canon, well, that changes matters a bit.

[kingrockwell]

If it were Ice, I could agree with you, but Bea was never quite as innocent. Apparently her origin was changed post-Crisis to being a spy with modeling as her cover. My regular sources are down, so I couldn't confirm or give you issue numbers right now.

and yeah, the Dimitri bit made me sad
he was one of my favorites

Now that you've read Blackest Night 8, how're you feeling about Generation Lost? I'm both intrigued and worried but I'll prolly give it a chance.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Was her origin changed before OMAC-era stuff?

Thing is, Dimitri was listed as Rocket Red #7 in OMAC, which he wasn't. #7 was the original Rocket Red to join their team, the one who turned out to be a Manhunter robot. Just lends further evidence to my theory that Rucka and company just read the first trade paperback of JLI and no further, and just took the characterizations from there (right along with Max still being a bastard AND a human).

I have high hopes for GENERATION LOST, but I'm concerned for three reasons:

1.) Can Winick prove as capable a partner for Giffen as DeMatteis? I don't want an imitation, just something as complementary.

2.) I want Max redeemed, goddammit. I don't want him to be the main bad guy for the whole story! But nothing I've seen indicates that anyone has any interest in redeeming him (or using the backdoor option that Johns introduced in BOOSTER GOLD).

3.) I'm bothered by a distinct lack of Guy and/or Ted. Either or both add vital dynamics to that team.

For all that, I say again: high hopes!

[kingrockwell]

ah, here we go
Secret Origins #33, way back in '88. When I say Post-Crisis, I never mean ICk.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Well, there you go then. All right, the I'm placated on the issue of Fire herself then. Still, bah to Max, Ted, and Dimitri being wasted.

[shadowlongknife.livejournal.com]

Your Greg Ruckas, those are the guys who need to be editors-in-chief.

But he talks too much sense, because the bosses want cash NOW NOW NOW, and not to have to hear, "Okay, this is gonna be a rebuilding period, just like resurrecting a crappy baseball/football/hockey team, so just TRUST ME, okay?"

[kingrockwell]

The problem is prolly he'd be in a total Oracle situation there if he couldn't write as well. Babs wouldn't hang back and coordinate instead of working in the field if she weren't stuck in the wheelchair, she wouldn't let herself. I can see Rucka feeling the same way about editing.

also yeah like they'd ever let him
except now in my dreams

[shadowlongknife.livejournal.com]

As long as he had a different editor, I wouldn't have an issue with his acting as editor in chief while writing. Bob Harras did it on Avengers as Editor in Chief, and Tom Defalco did it on Thor.

Admittedly DeFalco's Thor was assy, but that's besides the point.

Suffering Sappho.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

If Rucka's talking about The Wonderwoman bd/sm fan art out there on the internet, I kind of feel like Rucka's the guy who's missing the point here. Wonder Woman IS a BDSM fantasy that just happens to fight crime. Seriously. It's not even hidden. The original stories have more bondage, Female on Female domination, female on male Domination, male on Female domination and spanking than most of what passes of Bondage porn comics these days. The guy who created her was an active practitioner and advocate of the BDSM lifestyle. He and his wife had a live in female submissive.

This is why no one ever talks about bringing Wonderwoman back to her roots. Her roots are out and out kink with some greek mythology thrown onto it to explain the superpowers. If anyone were to actually ever try to write her as she was originally intended, those ever so humorless little biddies that make up the Feminist comic book community would burn the motherfucker at the steak.

That said, putting comics back onto the spinner racks in supermarkets and 7-11s is not going to save comic books. The comicbook industry as a whole in America has more or less spent the last 25 years doing everything it possibly could to make sure that it would end up in the specialized little publishing ghetto it stands in today. They aren't marketed to anyone who doesn't already read comics, most comics come with 20-30 odd years of continuity baggage that can be more than daunting to deal with, they are ludicrously over priced, and good god in heaven are they ever so very fucking pretentious. The average kid at the supermarket with mom has at least 1 videogame system waiting at home for him that can give all sorts of shiney, instant gratification comic books can't, and the internet, and dvds, and all these other things that pay off way quicker for entertainment value than comics do. Or, as you have put it many times, The american public at large cares so little about comic books that The Spiderman movies sold more Spiderman toothpaste than they did Spiderman comics. The Spinner racks are not going to save comics.

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

What about the iPad and Kindle? Will they save the art form, even if it's no longer printed on paper?

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

Possibly, I'm not sure how, though.

And I do want to say that I in no way believe that the art form of comics is ever going to die. Comics as an idea and a concept are actually very much beloved in our culture, I just don't ever think it's going to get back to the point where the top selling monthly books are in the millions. It's like poetry. Poetry has long ago fell out of favor with the general populace, but it is still published and read and written by a very appreciative group of people. Comics are never going to die, but I think we are in for some major fucking shake ups in the next decade or so when it comes to the bigger name companies.

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Instant accessibility to comics at one's fingertips without having to track down a comic store? I can see how that would be a plus. But I'm sure there are arguments against it.

Yeah, comics as an artform will never die. The medium itself is something that anybody can do with a pen and paper (or photoshop... or that painting app on the iPhone which actual artists use and do surprisingly great stuff with).

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

Also, pardon all spelling errors. 5 hours sleep in 2 days.

And also, to add to my last point, The grand irony of the way that the Monthly, serialized comic book is suffering from an almost complete lack of interest from the general public, the only growth industry in publishing right now is the graphic novel.

If The comic book industry really wanted to save itself and get out of the mess it is in, it should pay attention to this trend and recognize that people are more than willing to buy comic books that are self contained narratives. I don't care for Scott Pilgrim, but the movie is going to put sales of that book through the fucking roof if it manages to be a success because Scott Pilgrim has a beggining, a middle and an End. It's only going to be 7 books long. The last book is coming out right along with the movie. And for the most part, what you will see in that movie is what you will read in those books. This isn't Spider Man, where there are 40 god damn years of convuluted bullshit to wade through in order to understand or care about the damn book. Watchmen's another great example. The movie came out, Watchmen went into the New York Times best seller list. It's a self contained story. It has a beginning, a Middle and an End. You don't need to go out and pick up Nite-Owl #275 to understand why Rorschach has a grappling hook gun. Everything you need to know is in The book. The Sandman is another obvious example. Beggining, Middle, End. Everything you need to know to appreciate the Sandman is in the books that make up the Sandman. People don't want to have to deal with 40 odd years of continuity. They want a story, a story that has an ending. Monthly comics are simply not at all user friendly. The Graphic Novel is, and the sales figures show it.

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[thehefner.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's no wonder that so few people actually picked up a Batman comic with THE DARK KNIGHT coming out, and yet sales for WATCHMEN went through the fucking roof after that trailer hit. A single story, boom. That's what superhero comics need in general, more NEW FRONTIERS. So that said, what do you make of DC's upcoming EARTH ONE books?

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

I'm actually not exactly sure what the earth one books are supposed to be, but the sense I get from it is that it's going to be another attempt at something along the lines of an Ultimate universe, but for DC characters instead of Marvel characters. In the short term, I think that could be fun to have stories that can give us the characters we like behaving how we'd want them to, but with out the 30 plus years of continuity shenanigans to wade through. However, It's not going to lead to very much in the way of new stories about these characters. I have a feeling that we will end up with the exact same situation as the Ultimate books. We're going to get this or that writers version of major storylines from whatever character they happen to be writing the earth one version of's history. I will most likely not be paying attention to these books because I'm not sure I have very much interest in reading such and such new writer's version of KnightFall or the like. I like the DC universe. I like the characters there and the history of it. I don't particularly care for the way that 99% of the stories they currently publish about those characters and that universe are being handled, but the mainstream DCU is where my heart lies. If I don't like the way a character is being depicted I vote with my dollar by not buying the book and then ignoring whatever stupid idea is being played out at the time (not that I even buy monthlies anymore. 4.99 a book is far too fucking expensive for me to care about for 20 pages. I'd rather the books return to using news print and cheaper and far less fancy modes of coloring the books so that the price could be kept down. Then again, I sort of disdain most modern, digital comics coloring. So many bells and fucking whistles, non of them worth a god damn.) If you're willing to wait long enough for it to happen, then what ever you dislike about what is going on with this character you enjoy will eventually be undone, or if not undone, then some one else will come along later who has better ideas than the moron currently fucking up the book you love, and they will find ways to make the character more interesting inspite of other people's bad ideas. Guy Gardner is my favorite character, and we both know how pitifully he spent the better part of the 90s and early 2000s being treated. Loses his Lantern Ring, gains Sinestros, but also gains what is kind of one of the dumber costumes a character's ever worn (though, a couple of mild changes, like, nixing the white gloves, the G symbol, and giving him combat boots or egineer's boots instead of brown cowboy boots and the Guy wearing jeans and a leather jacket look makes complete sense for the character. Guy being very much the Jeans and Leather Jacket type of person) The stories were still at least entertaining ones, though. Then comes Emerald Twilight, and guy briefly gains that first COMPLETELY GAY leather chaps and spiked bracelets warrior costume (thankfully gone after one issue), Starts calling himself warrior, loses his the ring all together, but then goes on to gain completely nonsensical shape shifting abilities that allow him to turn his hands into a guns, and he starts dressing like some horrible combination of an Aztec sacrifice to the sun god and a pro-wrestler, he's half alien, and all of the stories suck.

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

The warrior years are more or less unreadable, and the only good idea to come out of them was the idea of Guy owning and operating a superhero themed bar. Spectacular idea. Then comes Rebirth, and suddenly guy's body rejects the stupid warrior powers, and he gets his lantern ring back. Not only does he get his lantern ring back, but his character is finally portrayed as the power house and leader that he's always been in the hands of better writers, and he's also the star of the most consistently interesting and well written superhero book currently being published. Way to go Guy! Hell, arguably there's never been a character who's benefitted more from a retcon than old Guy Gardner.

That got long and rambly. Any way, to sum up. Short term the Earth-one books will seem just a sparkly and shiny and trimmed of bullshit as the first ultimate books did, but over time, the shine will wear thin, and the bullshit will accumulate like celulite on a southern woman's ass, and there will just be 2 different versions of these characters who have 2 different versions of very similar continuity bullshit.

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[gnort.livejournal.com]

"the Feminist comic book community would burn the motherfucker at the steak"

I don't know if this was a freudian slip and you're just hungry or if this was intentional for the sake of humor. Either way, it's a really weird image.

Re: Suffering Sappho.

[surrealname.livejournal.com]

it was an accident.